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	<title>Comments on: I believe in global education, BUT&#8230;</title>
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	<link>http://msmichetti.edublogs.org/2008/05/11/i-believe-in-global-education-but/</link>
	<description>Good questions outrank easy answers. -Paul A. Samuelson</description>
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		<title>By: MsMichetti</title>
		<link>http://msmichetti.edublogs.org/2008/05/11/i-believe-in-global-education-but/comment-page-1/#comment-64</link>
		<dc:creator>MsMichetti</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 May 2008 06:19:39 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>@drdyer
Thanks for your contribution to this thread!  I have mixed feelings about the idea of recruitment in certain professions.  I&#039;ve done it both ways in international education -- I have used a recruiter, and I have not.  I have had success both ways, leaving me to wonder if recruiters really do give one an advantage.  I tend to think they were most beneficial for me when I was starting my career, whereas now that I&#039;ve been in it for more than 10 years, I know the ropes and I certainly feel I know enough people that I can network on my own.

However, adding recruitment to an educational framework seems unethical to me when it is done in this manner -- involving a middleman and so much money.  I think education should be more equitable to everyone.  Whereas in the professional arena, most people are on even playing field at least when it comes to salaries.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@drdyer<br />
Thanks for your contribution to this thread!  I have mixed feelings about the idea of recruitment in certain professions.  I&#8217;ve done it both ways in international education &#8212; I have used a recruiter, and I have not.  I have had success both ways, leaving me to wonder if recruiters really do give one an advantage.  I tend to think they were most beneficial for me when I was starting my career, whereas now that I&#8217;ve been in it for more than 10 years, I know the ropes and I certainly feel I know enough people that I can network on my own.</p>
<p>However, adding recruitment to an educational framework seems unethical to me when it is done in this manner &#8212; involving a middleman and so much money.  I think education should be more equitable to everyone.  Whereas in the professional arena, most people are on even playing field at least when it comes to salaries.</p>
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		<title>By: drdyer</title>
		<link>http://msmichetti.edublogs.org/2008/05/11/i-believe-in-global-education-but/comment-page-1/#comment-62</link>
		<dc:creator>drdyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 May 2008 18:17:19 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Ti nâu (I hope that is an appropriate greeting)

This practice reminds me much of the &#039;Headhunters&#039; or recruiters I would have to go through to find a job in medicine about 10 years ago. It was difficult to find jobs advertised for physicians; they generally aren&#039;t posted in the local papers. In order to find out about the job, you&#039;d have to be in touch with a recruiter.

I found a few positions this way and also was let go of a few because of the high recruiters fees. I think that the medical recruiter positions may be disappearing, because it is now easier to find medical jobs advertised online.

I am saddened to see that this type of practice is happening in academia. Hopefully schools will start addressing the interest in foreign students wanting to attend schools in the United States and figure out a way to cut out the middle man. I like your idea about using &quot;regular&quot; university employees, to go out and recruit for their university as normal.

I am posting as part of the 31 Day Challenge, in response to &lt;a href=&quot;http://drdyer.edublogs.org/2008/05/24/commenting-in-a-foreign-country-day-24/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Day 24&lt;/a&gt;, posting to a foreign country, instead of in a foreign language.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ti nâu (I hope that is an appropriate greeting)</p>
<p>This practice reminds me much of the &#8216;Headhunters&#8217; or recruiters I would have to go through to find a job in medicine about 10 years ago. It was difficult to find jobs advertised for physicians; they generally aren&#8217;t posted in the local papers. In order to find out about the job, you&#8217;d have to be in touch with a recruiter.</p>
<p>I found a few positions this way and also was let go of a few because of the high recruiters fees. I think that the medical recruiter positions may be disappearing, because it is now easier to find medical jobs advertised online.</p>
<p>I am saddened to see that this type of practice is happening in academia. Hopefully schools will start addressing the interest in foreign students wanting to attend schools in the United States and figure out a way to cut out the middle man. I like your idea about using &#8220;regular&#8221; university employees, to go out and recruit for their university as normal.</p>
<p>I am posting as part of the 31 Day Challenge, in response to <a href="http://drdyer.edublogs.org/2008/05/24/commenting-in-a-foreign-country-day-24/" rel="nofollow">Day 24</a>, posting to a foreign country, instead of in a foreign language.</p>
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		<title>By: Commenting in a Foreign Country Day 24 &#124; Ruminations of an Online Instructor / MD</title>
		<link>http://msmichetti.edublogs.org/2008/05/11/i-believe-in-global-education-but/comment-page-1/#comment-61</link>
		<dc:creator>Commenting in a Foreign Country Day 24 &#124; Ruminations of an Online Instructor / MD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 May 2008 17:55:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://msmichetti.edublogs.org/2008/05/11/i-believe-in-global-education-but/#comment-61</guid>
		<description>[...] Adrienne Michetti, create. connect. question, blogging from Hanoi, Vietnam. A comment was left on her May 11th post on I believe in global education, BUT… [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Adrienne Michetti, create. connect. question, blogging from Hanoi, Vietnam. A comment was left on her May 11th post on I believe in global education, BUT… [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mr. H</title>
		<link>http://msmichetti.edublogs.org/2008/05/11/i-believe-in-global-education-but/comment-page-1/#comment-58</link>
		<dc:creator>Mr. H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 May 2008 09:57:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://msmichetti.edublogs.org/2008/05/11/i-believe-in-global-education-but/#comment-58</guid>
		<description>To be honest, I didn&#039;t read the entire article (until now). I was counting on your brilliant abilities of synopsis and paraphrasing and selective quoting... :) 

However, after reading the entire article, I will still stand by my belief that it is more cost-effective for a small-time university to hire commissioned agents to attract diversity and big tuition payments. In this smaller, flatter world outsourcing is the way of the future.

I don&#039;t think any student is ever granted admission to a U.S. university based on one semester&#039;s worth of grades. That decision, to the best of my knowledge, will be based on the quality of work over grades 10, 11, 12 and maybe even 9. It will also include indicators such as SAT scores as well as application essays and letters of recommendation. Surely you are not advocating that the entire admissions process hinge on the outcome of a single set of exams? If anything, that is one of my biggest gripes with UK and some Australian universities.

Before we turn this into a &#039;bash the American educational system&#039; free-for-all, let&#039;s take some time to simmer down. YES, there are deplorable practices within the System and their are unfair advantages built in (call it institutional racism, elitism, classism, or any -ism of your choosing). There are also some pretty good things going on as well. Let&#039;s not forget that...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To be honest, I didn&#8217;t read the entire article (until now). I was counting on your brilliant abilities of synopsis and paraphrasing and selective quoting&#8230; <img src='http://msmichetti.edublogs.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  </p>
<p>However, after reading the entire article, I will still stand by my belief that it is more cost-effective for a small-time university to hire commissioned agents to attract diversity and big tuition payments. In this smaller, flatter world outsourcing is the way of the future.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think any student is ever granted admission to a U.S. university based on one semester&#8217;s worth of grades. That decision, to the best of my knowledge, will be based on the quality of work over grades 10, 11, 12 and maybe even 9. It will also include indicators such as SAT scores as well as application essays and letters of recommendation. Surely you are not advocating that the entire admissions process hinge on the outcome of a single set of exams? If anything, that is one of my biggest gripes with UK and some Australian universities.</p>
<p>Before we turn this into a &#8216;bash the American educational system&#8217; free-for-all, let&#8217;s take some time to simmer down. YES, there are deplorable practices within the System and their are unfair advantages built in (call it institutional racism, elitism, classism, or any -ism of your choosing). There are also some pretty good things going on as well. Let&#8217;s not forget that&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: MsMichetti</title>
		<link>http://msmichetti.edublogs.org/2008/05/11/i-believe-in-global-education-but/comment-page-1/#comment-56</link>
		<dc:creator>MsMichetti</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 May 2008 01:31:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://msmichetti.edublogs.org/2008/05/11/i-believe-in-global-education-but/#comment-56</guid>
		<description>@Mr. H
Did you read the original article? These universities aren&#039;t using agents to recruit from 100+ different countries.  Most universities are using the agent to recruit from one, maybe 2, countries overseas.  

As for what you&#039;re saying about early admissions -- I didn&#039;t argue with you about that, mostly due to my lack of knowledge (or understanding) about it, because this is the first I&#039;ve heard of it (as I said previously, these scenarios do not happen where I&#039;m from because they are simply not allowed).  I think it&#039;s wrong, period, and I&#039;m disappointed that the American educational public has ever allowed that to happen.  Y&#039;know, there are times when I think America&#039;s got education under control (when I see what some teachers / professors are doing in their courses) and then there are other times when I think it&#039;s a right @#$@ mess (NCLB and this discussion).

Makes me think also of all the students I have taught who have been granted &quot;unconditional acceptance&quot; to American universities in January of their senior year based on predicted IB Diploma grades or even just their 1st semester report card grades.  &quot;Unconditional acceptance&quot;?  What the heck is that about?  

So, *arms flailing* &lt;b&gt;why isn&#039;t anyone doing anything about this?&lt;/b&gt;  Are the American public satisfied with all these inequities?  

P.S. Mr H, wondering why you aren&#039;t owning your comments?  By this I mean that I have noticed you have not entered a URL in the comment form.  I know who you are, but others don&#039;t.  ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Mr. H<br />
Did you read the original article? These universities aren&#8217;t using agents to recruit from 100+ different countries.  Most universities are using the agent to recruit from one, maybe 2, countries overseas.  </p>
<p>As for what you&#8217;re saying about early admissions &#8212; I didn&#8217;t argue with you about that, mostly due to my lack of knowledge (or understanding) about it, because this is the first I&#8217;ve heard of it (as I said previously, these scenarios do not happen where I&#8217;m from because they are simply not allowed).  I think it&#8217;s wrong, period, and I&#8217;m disappointed that the American educational public has ever allowed that to happen.  Y&#8217;know, there are times when I think America&#8217;s got education under control (when I see what some teachers / professors are doing in their courses) and then there are other times when I think it&#8217;s a right @#$@ mess (NCLB and this discussion).</p>
<p>Makes me think also of all the students I have taught who have been granted &#8220;unconditional acceptance&#8221; to American universities in January of their senior year based on predicted IB Diploma grades or even just their 1st semester report card grades.  &#8220;Unconditional acceptance&#8221;?  What the heck is that about?  </p>
<p>So, *arms flailing* <b>why isn&#8217;t anyone doing anything about this?</b>  Are the American public satisfied with all these inequities?  </p>
<p>P.S. Mr H, wondering why you aren&#8217;t owning your comments?  By this I mean that I have noticed you have not entered a URL in the comment form.  I know who you are, but others don&#8217;t.  <img src='http://msmichetti.edublogs.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Mr. H</title>
		<link>http://msmichetti.edublogs.org/2008/05/11/i-believe-in-global-education-but/comment-page-1/#comment-55</link>
		<dc:creator>Mr. H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 May 2008 13:43:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://msmichetti.edublogs.org/2008/05/11/i-believe-in-global-education-but/#comment-55</guid>
		<description>Let&#039;s say the average tuition for an international student is $30,000. And let&#039;s say the university pays 20% to the agent. That&#039;s $6000.  And let&#039;s say that 100 students the university arrive via agents. That&#039;s $600,000 per year paid by the university in commission.

Now, if a university were to hire people knowledgeable in their field, how much would they pay them yearly? $50,000/year, inclusive of benefits, taxes, etc? (As you may have guessed, I&#039;m making this number up. I have no way of knowing what a university would pay somebody to deliver golden eggs.) Do you think 12 of these employees could do the same job as the countless number of agents? I&#039;m sure those 12 employees could focus on China or India and recruit the same 100 international students, but what kind of diversity is that? By the way, Harvard has students from over &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.hio.harvard.edu/about_hio/statistics/StatStudCrossByCountrySchool0708.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;100 different countries&lt;/a&gt;.

And yes, Polly&#039;s will not offer the same level of education as Harvard, but that is not what I was arguing. Not all universities will give the same level of education, but there will be more than one that can give me what I want/need. 

Also, as evidence for my earlier statement regarding &lt;a href=&quot;http://harvardmagazine.com/2005/05/a-thumb-on-the-scale.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;early decision admissions&lt;/a&gt;:
&quot;What is most troubling about this form of preference is that it rewards applicants who are fortunate enough to know that applying early can benefit them substantially and who attend secondary schools, or are from families, with sufficient sophistication to know how to meet the early application deadlines. This group includes students at top-tier secondary schools, those with close connections to the college or university to which they are applying, and recruited athletes. Also, the very nature of early decision programs—which require students offered admission to matriculate at the school in question—makes it impossible for students who have financial need to compare financial aid offers from various schools in which they are interested. Minority students are of course disproportionately represented in the “need-sensitive” category.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let&#8217;s say the average tuition for an international student is $30,000. And let&#8217;s say the university pays 20% to the agent. That&#8217;s $6000.  And let&#8217;s say that 100 students the university arrive via agents. That&#8217;s $600,000 per year paid by the university in commission.</p>
<p>Now, if a university were to hire people knowledgeable in their field, how much would they pay them yearly? $50,000/year, inclusive of benefits, taxes, etc? (As you may have guessed, I&#8217;m making this number up. I have no way of knowing what a university would pay somebody to deliver golden eggs.) Do you think 12 of these employees could do the same job as the countless number of agents? I&#8217;m sure those 12 employees could focus on China or India and recruit the same 100 international students, but what kind of diversity is that? By the way, Harvard has students from over <a href="http://www.hio.harvard.edu/about_hio/statistics/StatStudCrossByCountrySchool0708.pdf" rel="nofollow">100 different countries</a>.</p>
<p>And yes, Polly&#8217;s will not offer the same level of education as Harvard, but that is not what I was arguing. Not all universities will give the same level of education, but there will be more than one that can give me what I want/need. </p>
<p>Also, as evidence for my earlier statement regarding <a href="http://harvardmagazine.com/2005/05/a-thumb-on-the-scale.html" rel="nofollow">early decision admissions</a>:<br />
&#8220;What is most troubling about this form of preference is that it rewards applicants who are fortunate enough to know that applying early can benefit them substantially and who attend secondary schools, or are from families, with sufficient sophistication to know how to meet the early application deadlines. This group includes students at top-tier secondary schools, those with close connections to the college or university to which they are applying, and recruited athletes. Also, the very nature of early decision programs—which require students offered admission to matriculate at the school in question—makes it impossible for students who have financial need to compare financial aid offers from various schools in which they are interested. Minority students are of course disproportionately represented in the “need-sensitive” category.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Rock</title>
		<link>http://msmichetti.edublogs.org/2008/05/11/i-believe-in-global-education-but/comment-page-1/#comment-54</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Rock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 May 2008 11:04:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://msmichetti.edublogs.org/2008/05/11/i-believe-in-global-education-but/#comment-54</guid>
		<description>&quot;&lt;i&gt;As for comment #6, point taken. However, isn’t it the more likely scenario that I, as the recruiter, set the price and not the university?&lt;/i&gt;&quot;

OK, take the word &quot;more&quot; out of my scenario. That is, should I be getting paid based on whether or not I am successful in recruiting someone?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;<i>As for comment #6, point taken. However, isn’t it the more likely scenario that I, as the recruiter, set the price and not the university?</i>&#8221;</p>
<p>OK, take the word &#8220;more&#8221; out of my scenario. That is, should I be getting paid based on whether or not I am successful in recruiting someone?</p>
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		<title>By: MsMichetti</title>
		<link>http://msmichetti.edublogs.org/2008/05/11/i-believe-in-global-education-but/comment-page-1/#comment-52</link>
		<dc:creator>MsMichetti</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 May 2008 10:42:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://msmichetti.edublogs.org/2008/05/11/i-believe-in-global-education-but/#comment-52</guid>
		<description>Mr H
Why can&#039;t university recruiters employ people who have knowledge in their field, then? Like, maybe recruiters who speak the languages of the region they are focused on, and who maybe [gasp!] have even lived there?  And, hopefully, they also believe in the strengths and passions of the universities they represent while recruiting?  Doesn&#039;t this sound more logical?  Then the university has people working for them with the localized knowledge you speak of.  The world is getting smaller (and flatter to boot), so maybe universities need to get themselves into the 21st century of networking.

The article implied that universities set the rate, and not the recruiters:

&lt;i&gt;&quot;“The market range is anywhere from 10 to 25 percent of tuition,” said Visakan Ganeson, director of international programs at Skagit Valley College in Mount Vernon, Wash., which gets about half of its 200 international students through commissioned agents. “How much you pay depends on your position in the market.”&lt;/i&gt;

Thus, it is possible that a recruiter could mis-match students to universities.  

I also don&#039;t believe that &quot;For every university, more than one student will fit, and for every student, more than one university will be appropriate&quot; or that if a recruiter &quot;steer a student to university Y, s/he will receive just as valuable an education.&quot;  Polly&#039;s University of Basketweaving might charge the same fee as Harvard.

I have to hate the player who is making $ off the game, and I think universities have a responsibility to hold themselves to high ethical standards and thus not play the game at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr H<br />
Why can&#8217;t university recruiters employ people who have knowledge in their field, then? Like, maybe recruiters who speak the languages of the region they are focused on, and who maybe [gasp!] have even lived there?  And, hopefully, they also believe in the strengths and passions of the universities they represent while recruiting?  Doesn&#8217;t this sound more logical?  Then the university has people working for them with the localized knowledge you speak of.  The world is getting smaller (and flatter to boot), so maybe universities need to get themselves into the 21st century of networking.</p>
<p>The article implied that universities set the rate, and not the recruiters:</p>
<p><i>&#8220;“The market range is anywhere from 10 to 25 percent of tuition,” said Visakan Ganeson, director of international programs at Skagit Valley College in Mount Vernon, Wash., which gets about half of its 200 international students through commissioned agents. “How much you pay depends on your position in the market.”</i></p>
<p>Thus, it is possible that a recruiter could mis-match students to universities.  </p>
<p>I also don&#8217;t believe that &#8220;For every university, more than one student will fit, and for every student, more than one university will be appropriate&#8221; or that if a recruiter &#8220;steer a student to university Y, s/he will receive just as valuable an education.&#8221;  Polly&#8217;s University of Basketweaving might charge the same fee as Harvard.</p>
<p>I have to hate the player who is making $ off the game, and I think universities have a responsibility to hold themselves to high ethical standards and thus not play the game at all.</p>
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		<title>By: Mr. H</title>
		<link>http://msmichetti.edublogs.org/2008/05/11/i-believe-in-global-education-but/comment-page-1/#comment-50</link>
		<dc:creator>Mr. H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 May 2008 08:22:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://msmichetti.edublogs.org/2008/05/11/i-believe-in-global-education-but/#comment-50</guid>
		<description>@Peter

Even non-partisan college admissions counselors have limited knowledge of universities. It has been my experience that college counselors (esp. for international students) &quot;go with what they know&quot; and have their own favorite universities that they will recommend. When I refer to localized knowledge, I&#039;m referring to the agents understanding the individual circumstance of the students (which the universities would not possess) and understanding the requirements/benefits/culture of the universities (which the students would not possess).

As for comment #6, point taken. However, isn&#039;t it the more likely scenario that I, as the recruiter, set the price and not the university? And if a university is not willing to pay my price then I&#039;m not even going to consider learning about what would make a good match with that university? So, university X won&#039;t even be on my radar... I don&#039;t think it is a functional relationship (in the mathematical sense) between universities and students. For every university, more than one student will fit, and for every student, more than one university will be appropriate. If I steer a student to university Y, s/he will receive just as valuable an education. One hopes that the student is doing due diligence on their part and double-checking the recommendation of the agent. I think an issue of unethical-ness rears its head if the agent misrepresents either the student or the university.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Peter</p>
<p>Even non-partisan college admissions counselors have limited knowledge of universities. It has been my experience that college counselors (esp. for international students) &#8220;go with what they know&#8221; and have their own favorite universities that they will recommend. When I refer to localized knowledge, I&#8217;m referring to the agents understanding the individual circumstance of the students (which the universities would not possess) and understanding the requirements/benefits/culture of the universities (which the students would not possess).</p>
<p>As for comment #6, point taken. However, isn&#8217;t it the more likely scenario that I, as the recruiter, set the price and not the university? And if a university is not willing to pay my price then I&#8217;m not even going to consider learning about what would make a good match with that university? So, university X won&#8217;t even be on my radar&#8230; I don&#8217;t think it is a functional relationship (in the mathematical sense) between universities and students. For every university, more than one student will fit, and for every student, more than one university will be appropriate. If I steer a student to university Y, s/he will receive just as valuable an education. One hopes that the student is doing due diligence on their part and double-checking the recommendation of the agent. I think an issue of unethical-ness rears its head if the agent misrepresents either the student or the university.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Rock</title>
		<link>http://msmichetti.edublogs.org/2008/05/11/i-believe-in-global-education-but/comment-page-1/#comment-49</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Rock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 May 2008 07:01:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://msmichetti.edublogs.org/2008/05/11/i-believe-in-global-education-but/#comment-49</guid>
		<description>Mr H says,

&quot;&lt;i&gt;The agent facilitates this process and saves time, money and energy by directing the student to the appropriate institution.&lt;/i&gt;&quot;

I&#039;m a recruiter who knows that a student would be best suited for university X. However, if I can get the student to come to university Y, I know I will get paid more. Why should I direct the student to X (i.e. the &quot;appropriate institution&quot;)?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr H says,</p>
<p>&#8220;<i>The agent facilitates this process and saves time, money and energy by directing the student to the appropriate institution.</i>&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m a recruiter who knows that a student would be best suited for university X. However, if I can get the student to come to university Y, I know I will get paid more. Why should I direct the student to X (i.e. the &#8220;appropriate institution&#8221;)?</p>
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